Re: Blind user 2

Els <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl> wrote in
news:1daitgaq6cyi0.1vzz6ncuhon4z$.dlg@40tude.net:

>
> Making text colour the same as background colour will still make the
> link take up space. Personally I give the skip links a
> position:absolute (takes them out of the flow, hence, they take up no
> space), and then a negative top and/or left position so that it falls
> way off the screen for sighted users.
> .skiplink{
> position:absolute;
> top:-1000px;
> left:-1000px;
> }

hey....wow....

the funny thing is our current site design features two little ornamental
blocks hanging out on top of the composition. one has an image and the
other a bgcolor. the coder/programmer crew always wanted to know what
purpose they served, hinting NONE and that they should be removed. well,
now we know what they are for: concealing skip links. we'll play with the
above technique too.

>
>
> What are CSS-drawn images? You mean background images?

background images and other images called from style sheet.

> On this page: http://inspirebc.org.uk/ I needed (for technical browser
> support reasons) to put the logos in the background image, which left
> blind users with no alt text. So I put transparent images in front of
> it, which I gave alt text. This page works for blind users just as
> well as sighted ones I think.
>

ok, neat idea, but do you get the feeling we're being 'sneaky'? it just
sort of smacks of 'the bad old days' of hidden keyword stuffing & etc.


>
> Just something that comes to mind: many web pages use a flag to
> indicate choice of language. Now I don't wanna go into the discussion
> of whether that's appropriate or not, but to take it to the current
> topic: choice of language should be the very very first option on the
> page, even before the first skiplink, for blind users.
>

agreed in principal, but friends tell me i still have a ways to go with
English and have no business messing with anybody else's language.
intiende que me dijas? oh yeah, and if you think my Spanish is bad, you
should hear my Dineh. and my German? let's just say 'was sol ich
schrieben?' my redneck, however, demmonstrates flawless command of the
ways of the unwashed: 'what'r yew lookin' at?' but i digress...

>
> What are you suggesting, writing html code on a page like
> <,p,>,hello,<,/,p,> ?
>

that's what i heard, yeah. there's two big problems right now: i don't
know the scope of software products people are using and i haven't been
able to set up the kind of reporting from users that we need to make
sense of things. i'm getting acendotals and second or third-hand stuff.

>> also,
>> SHOUTING DOESN'T WORK. words in uppercase are usually interpreted as
>> acronyms: S-H-O-U-T.
>
> I see no problem with leaving shouting out of web pages ;-)
>

can't hear you. louder?

trevor wrote:

> Els <els.aNOSPAM@tiscali.nl> wrote in
> news:1daitgaq6cyi0.1vzz6ncuhon4z$.dlg@40tude.net:
>
>> Making text colour the same as background colour will still make the
>> link take up space. Personally I give the skip links a
>> position:absolute (takes them out of the flow, hence, they take up no
>> space), and then a negative top and/or left position so that it falls
>> way off the screen for sighted users.
>> .skiplink{
>> position:absolute;
>> top:-1000px;
>> left:-1000px;
>> }
>
> hey....wow....
>
> the funny thing is our current site design features two little ornamental
> blocks hanging out on top of the composition. one has an image and the
> other a bgcolor. the coder/programmer crew always wanted to know what
> purpose they served, hinting NONE and that they should be removed. well,
> now we know what they are for: concealing skip links. we'll play with the
> above technique too.

Have fun ;-)

>> What are CSS-drawn images? You mean background images?
>
> background images and other images called from style sheet.
>
>> On this page: http://inspirebc.org.uk/ I needed (for technical browser
>> support reasons) to put the logos in the background image, which left
>> blind users with no alt text. So I put transparent images in front of
>> it, which I gave alt text. This page works for blind users just as
>> well as sighted ones I think.
>
> ok, neat idea, but do you get the feeling we're being 'sneaky'? it just
> sort of smacks of 'the bad old days' of hidden keyword stuffing & etc.

For one, I wasn't connected to the internet in those bad old days, so
I have no recollection of it ;-)
Also: no, I don't think it's like that. The only things that are
hidden from sighted users are still making sense if they were visible.
It's not like anything is doubled or sneakily hidden. I really doubt
Google to rate any page higher or lower because of a couple of "skip
to navigation" links and a few extra <h2>s with the text "Header",
"Navigation" and "Footer".

If the page makes perfect sense with or without images and/or styles,
there's no sneaky business involved afaics.

>> Just something that comes to mind: many web pages use a flag to
>> indicate choice of language. Now I don't wanna go into the discussion
>> of whether that's appropriate or not, but to take it to the current
>> topic: choice of language should be the very very first option on the
>> page, even before the first skiplink, for blind users.
>
> agreed in principal, but friends tell me i still have a ways to go with
> English and have no business messing with anybody else's language.
> intiende que me dijas?

con certeza, mas aqui nos falamos sobre todos os sites no mundo, não
só o seu.
(rough translation: I don't think this thread is only about your web
site, the choose a language option is good for any dual language site
on the web, as some people do speak more than one language fluently
;-) )

> oh yeah, and if you think my Spanish is bad,

Mine is worse - I don't speak Spanish :-)

> you
> should hear my Dineh. and my German? let's just say 'was sol ich
> schrieben?' my redneck, however, demmonstrates flawless command of the
> ways of the unwashed: 'what'r yew lookin' at?' but i digress...

:-)

>> What are you suggesting, writing html code on a page like
>> <,p,>,hello,<,/,p,> ?
>
> that's what i heard, yeah. there's two big problems right now: i don't
> know the scope of software products people are using and i haven't been
> able to set up the kind of reporting from users that we need to make
> sense of things. i'm getting acendotals and second or third-hand stuff.

How in the world would you let a blind user listen to commas, yet have
them invisible to the sighted visitor? Of course you can use
<span>,</span> between all the characters and style them either really
small (height:0 or position them off the screen like the skiplinks,
but I do think that's taking things a bit too far...
Plus it would not make sense at all to any sighted user using an old
browser or a text browser.

>>> also,
>>> SHOUTING DOESN'T WORK. words in uppercase are usually interpreted as
>>> acronyms: S-H-O-U-T.
>>
>> I see no problem with leaving shouting out of web pages ;-)
>
> can't hear you. louder?

use the volume button on your sound system :-)

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