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| | #1 (permalink) | |||
| Monkey Mouse ![]() | Quote:
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| | #2 (permalink) |
| Enlisted Warrior ![]() | This commentary is flawed on many levels. Let's start with what history teaches: "First... wars often change purposes after they begin." True enough, especially if the war persists for a lengthy period of time. WWII was started over Poland. WWI started over an assassination. "Second... sometimes the new purpose is vastly better than the one it replaces." Well, that is not so true. While the rhetoric of wWI was about all sorts of good things, the truth was just not so nice. Wilson's points were not the basis of peace. In WWII, freedom, etc. was only to be enjoyed by those occupied by the western Allies (for the following forty-five years). "The third lesson... Brief wars rarely produce permanent results, but long wars often do." There are so many counter-examples: the Falklands War, the Six Day War, the Franco-Prussian War. All of these were "brief" wars and their results were about as permanent as can be expected. Now, let's consider WWI (the author's only other example). It produced a peace that lasted about as long as it took for the Germans to recover from defeat. Now, suggesting that the second Iraq conflict persisting is a good thing seems to me like suggesting that the inability of US-South Vietnam forces to force a decisive military defeat on the North and its Vietcong allies in the South was a good thing. In my opinion, that is just silly. As the author admits, the conflict in Iraq has witnessed "bungling and bad management" -- and that is being kind. What should really disturb the reader though is the suggestion that "[e]ither we fight the fight our enemies have chosen... or millions of Muslim men and women may lose their "last, best hope"--and we may face a mushroom cloud over Manhattan..." Somehow that smacks of dominos and Vietnam and that is not a reassuring parallel. Iraq is just a miserable little sandbox. I happen to be one of those who felt the adventure was a mistake to begin with. Now that the US is there, with only some of its long-time allies, it ought to remain committed to producing a viable conclusion. But let's try and keep some perspective on the worst possible case. A total and immediate withdrawal would probably produce a civil war and intervention by Turks and Iranians for starters. It would not be the end of the world and Americans would still be free to watch it all on television. The idea that it might mean mushroom clouds over Manhattan is a bit much. Perhaps Vietnam is a good example to look to. Anyone here afraid of Vietnam? The folks in charge there did win the war (or at least drive out American influence). So what? Where are they today? |
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| | #3 (permalink) |
| Junior Officer ![]() | I don't mean to put words in the author's mouth but I think the point is that oftentimes war and recovery take a long time. The idea that you can go into a country and stabalize in a couple of years is asinine. All the media trumpets is the casualty figures and the mistakes that are made. Well yeah, mistakes are made because life and death decisions are made in the blink of an eye and sometimes the wrong choice is made. What is ignored is the progress that is being made. Most of Iraq is safe and stable but that's not what is seen on the nightly news. A comparison with Vietnam lacks merit. Surely you don't equate the impoverished and low resource country with one of the world's largest producers of oil. During the Vietnam War, did we really fear that North Vietnam was going to attack us? My ignorance shows here, but I think the idea was that the IDEOLOGY would spread, it wasn't physical threat, it was political threat. And what was the result? Many years of cold war as a result of our military "failures" in Vietnam and Korea. No, Vietnam is not a threat but we lost billions of dollars and lives subsequent to the war as a result of the failure of democracy to quell the communistic threat. This war presents a true and real physical threat. The forces behind this war have already attacked the US Mainland and citizens abroad. These forces have attacked Spain, England, Pakistan, Afghanistan, even Saudi Arabia. They have attacked our forces in Lebanon, in Saudi, in Iraq, in Afghanistan. They have brutalized their own citizens. They have declared a war against a country for a cartoon. They have shot down planes, they have sunk ships. They have no hesitation to die for their cause and they don't hesitate to take innocent lives with them. They are well funded, they largely have the support of the press, and the communication/transportation system is not equivelent to the times of Vietnam. Why is the idea of a mushroom cloud over Manhattan a bit much??? Is there any difference between the Al Quaida that's main goal is destroy the West and Israel, the former regime in Iraq, the funding source in Saudi, or the theocracy that is fundemental in Iran? I see very little difference. And now Iran is working on a bomb. Come on, there is a very real threat here that is being ignored. I pray that we don't ignore it too long. And I hope that people begin to see this as an all out war for our lives as we know it. |
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| | #4 (permalink) | ||||||
| Enlisted Warrior ![]() | Quote:
While I find the idea being expressed rather dubious, I found the reasoning in support of his position to be inherently flawed and that, more than the thesis as such, was what I object to. One cannot simply pull up utterly disconnected historical events and draw only those parallels one happens to like. That is just not logically coherent. Quote:
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However, the real test of the theory lay in places like Thailand. It had a long running series of insurgencies (including a Communist one) but it never fell. The Domino Theory was not validated. Perhaps it is a stretch, but I do not really believe the current Islamist revolutionaries have any better prospects of achieving a regional victory, much less a global victory, than the North Vietnamese Communists did. Quote:
If your stated position is representative of American forces in Iraq, I would (without any flame intent) suggest the forces on the ground are losing perspective. On a strategic level, the Iraq conflict is a small war of little significance. This is not the first time Iraq has had a regime change imposed on it. Winning Iraq (for democracy?) or losing it (to Islamists?) will not really change the world much. I find this attachment of import to Iraq disturbing about the original author as well. Iraq is being made out to be much more than it is. In doing so far too much significance is being given to the eventual outcome. That is dangerous because -- like it or not -- an insurgency of this sort can go on for a long time and the cost of bothering to keep it in check can become unreasonably high. The British ultimately let Iraq and Afghanistan go their own ways. We should all remain mindful that the United States may ultimately choose to do likewise. At the very worst, the Iraq conflict might reduce American political influence in parts of the Middle East. Chances are that this would be balanced by increased influence in other parts of the Middle East and Asia. Quote:
I realize this may seem callous but a little perspective needs to be kept here. How many people died in traffic accidents that year? Random shootings? America is not collapsing because of those deaths and an Islamic revolution just doesn't seem in the cards for America. Is a terrorist nuclear attack something to think about? Maybe if you are contingency planner at DOD. If you live or work in Manhattan, don't concern yourself with this possibility. Maybe if this was a thread about China there would be some reason to ponder the threat of a mushroom cloud over Manhattan. This is about Iraq, AQ and a couple of rogue states (particularly Iran, I suppose). Quote:
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| | #5 (permalink) | |||
| Junior Officer ![]() | Quote:
To not see a credible threat in the state of world affairs is to put your head in the proverbial sand. Did you not read the article above? No, it's true that individual terrorists won't gain the technology to deliver a nuclear bomb. It's the concentric rings of power that WILL have the technology to deliver nuclear bombs. And the powerbrokers gain money and influence with every battle won by the low level insurgents. By your same line of logic: These little drugs won't do any harm...leave them alone. How could one little country in europe conquer the entire world? How could one little man wield enough influence to take over the world? He's just taking over Czechloslavakia -- no big deal, appease him. There's no way that he could kill all of those Jews...6 million? Posh. The south could never succeed on it's own, let them try their hand at running a country. Just because communism is taking over every little country, there's no credible threat to our way of life. It's just Korea..it's just Vietnam...it's just El Salvador...it's just ...oh holy crap! Quote:
No, no sir, I am not losing perspective. I think that you have not gained any. Quote:
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| | #6 (permalink) |
| Non-Commissioned Officer ![]() | Plain and simple, We are fighting a group*which don't care about nothing but themselves. They chemically attack their own people, not military, but women, children, and the old. They strap explosives to themselves and half the time the kill innocent women, children, and the old. They kill people over a cartoon but chop peoples heads off that are there to help everyone. A women in this area cannot speak her mind, if she does she's dead. It goes on and on. It's not the people of Iraq, Iran, or any other country. It's the militant extremists that say their word is the only thing that matters. To me they all need to die. There is no place on earth for these types. Like it or not War is sometimes the only answer. I don't like war, but it is a nessicery evil at this point in history.
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