French MPs Back Armenia Genocide Bill, Turkey Angry

[milmor_1]

French MPs Back Armenia Genocide Bill, Turkey Angry
By REUTERS
Filed at 1:31 p.m. ET

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world...gewanted=print

PARIS (Reuters) - France's lower house of parliament approved a bill on Thursday making it a crime to deny Armenians suffered genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks, provoking anger in Turkey and raising fresh doubts about its EU ambitions.

Ankara said the vote would damage ties between the two NATO allies and French firms operating in Turkey feared they would suffer an immediate backlash.

``This will be an unforgettable shame on France. France can never describe itself as a country of freedoms again,'' said Turkish Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul.

Turkey denies accusations some 1.5 million Armenians were massacred during the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire in World War One, arguing that Armenian deaths were a part of general partisan fighting in which both sides suffered.

The French government distanced itself from Thursday's bill, calling it ``unnecessary and untimely,'' and indicated that it might never become law as it still needs to be ratified by both the upper house Senate and French president.

But Turkish officials, fearing a nationalist backlash that could put the pro-European Ankara government on the defensive, said the damage had already been done.

The legislation calls for a one-year prison term and 45,000 euro ($56,570) fine for anyone denying the 1915 genocide -- the same sanction as for denying the Nazi genocide of Jews.

``Does a genocide committed in World War One have less value than a genocide committed in World War Two? Obviously not,'' Philippe Pomezec, a parliamentarian with the ruling Union for a Popular Movement (UMP), said during the debate.

Armenian Foreign Minister Vardan Oskanyan hailed the vote as a ``natural continuation of France's principled and consistent defense of human and historic rights and values.''

HOSTAGE TO POLITICS

However, analysts saw the move more as a play for Armenian diaspora votes in next year's presidential election and said it highlighted how easily Turkey's EU candidacy can become a hostage to domestic politics in EU member states.

``It is the intention of those French politicians who backed this bill to antagonize Turkey, to push it to the limit and force it to throw in the towel,'' said Cengiz Candar, an EU expert at Istanbul's Bahcesehir University.

Some 60 protesters carried a black wreath down Istanbul's main commercial street on Thursday and laid it in front of the French consulate.

Most French people oppose Turkey joining the 25-nation bloc and fear over its potential membership was one of the reasons why France voted last year to reject the EU constitution.

Anti-Turkish feeling was palpable as lawmakers left parliament on Thursday. Influential UMP politician Patrick Devedjian, himself of Armenian descent, said Muslim Turkey was not a democratic country and did not deserve EU membership.

``It is like they are asking to enter a club but have already smashed its windows,'' he told Reuters television.

The European Commission warned France that its bill could hinder efforts to end decades of dispute over the killings and noted that criteria for talks on Turkey's possible EU entry did not include recognition of the Armenian killings as genocide.

An hour after the vote, Turkey's best-known novelist, Orhan Pamuk, won the Nobel prize for Literature.

Pamuk recently went on trial for insulting ``Turkishness'' after telling a Swiss newspaper nobody in Turkey dared mention the Armenian massacres. The court eventually dropped charges.

French businesses fear trade will suffer because of the row, with French exports to Turkey worth 4.66 billion euros in 2005.

``Time will show. But I cannot say it will not have any consequences,'' Turkish Economics Minister Ali Babacan told reporters in Brussels.

[Woodmonkey]

France's lower house of parliament approved a bill on Thursday making it a crime to deny Armenians suffered genocide at the hands of Ottoman Turks, provoking anger in Turkey and raising fresh doubts about its EU ambitions.

I don't like this law, but because I think it's wrong to make this against the law. It infringes on free speech to tell people they can only say that the Armenians suffered.

The Holocaust is a completely different, and unrelated, event that there is an abundance of evidence to support and none to deny. People who try and deny that happened have an agenda that is dangerous to all free people.

And why would Turkey objecting to this have anything to do with it joining the European Union (not NATO as I mistakenly put earlier)?


Edited this to mention that I put NATO in by mistake, meant to put in the EU.

[milmor_1]

to be frank I think it is a ridiculous law and unnecessary.

Will France enact a law to say that their genocide of the Cathars in during the Albisignian Crusade was wrong. I doubt it.

Turkey is a member of NATO to the best of my knowledge, I think they were referring to Turkeys aspiration to join the EU, there appears to be opposition building in France against Turkey joining.

[Snowden]

I think Turkey is a member of NATO, Mal - and, of course, oderman can tell us about that.

Turkey during the Ottoman Empire and Turkey today are quite different, I'd expect. I know that the U.S. in colonial times, or during the Civil War and even WWII, is somewhat different during each period.

It's a stupid law, I think, doubly so if France doesn't make it also aimed at their own historical mistakes. History and now - we need to know it, but we are not living it as it was.

[milmor_1]

Here is a Turkish Response to the proposed French Law;

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/14/wo...gewanted=print

Turkish Laureate Criticizes French Legislation
By SEBNEM ARSU
ISTANBUL, Oct. 13 — Orhan Pamuk, the Turkish novelist who won the Nobel Prize in Literature this week, went on television Friday to criticize the French parliamentary vote that would make it a crime to deny that the Ottoman Turks’ mass killing of Armenians constituted genocide.

In a telephone interview broadcast live on the private television network NTV, Mr. Pamuk, who faced criminal charges for his statements acknowledging the massacre, said France had acted against its own fundamental principles of freedom of expression.

“The French tradition of critical thinking influenced and taught me a lot,” he said. “This decision, however, is a prohibition and didn’t suit the libertarian nature of the French tradition.” The legislation was approved by the lower house of Parliament, but it is uncertain whether the upper house will concur.

In any case, Mr. Pamuk urged his compatriots not to let their frustration with France get out of hand. He used a Turkish proverb to get his point across. Roughly translated, it means “Don’t set the blanket on fire for a flea.”

Some analysts fear that widespread anger against the French legislation may turn more Turks against joining the European Union. A Turkish opinion poll released in July showed a decline in support, to 58 percent from a high of 74 percent in 2003, in part because of the prolonged road to admission.

Mr. Pamuk’s statement came after some in the country voiced suspicions that the award was politically motivated. Mr. Pamuk owes part of his celebrity in Europe to his criticism of Turkey’s stance on the Armenian genocide. Many in Europe feel that Turkey should acknowledge that the mass killings during and after World War I were genocide, and the country’s refusal may complicate its attempts to join the European Union.

Some of Mr. Pamuk’s supporters called it unfortunate that the prize was awarded on the same day as the French parliamentary vote. They fear that Turks will see the two events as more evidence that Europe is treating their country unfairly.

Bulent Arinc, the speaker of the Turkish Parliament, challenged Mr. Pamuk on Friday to tell the world what he thought about the French legislation, which Mr. Arinc said “massacres freedom of expression.”

Mr. Pamuk was charged last year with making “anti-Turkish” remarks when he called attention to the Armenian genocide during an interview with a Swiss magazine. Turkish nationalists initiated the criminal case using a law that makes it a crime to insult Turkish identity. Europeans and others who decried Mr. Pamuk’s treatment said Turkey was violating his freedom of expression. After much outside pressure, the charges were dropped on a technicality.

While the French legislation drew mostly negative reaction here, Mr. Pamuk’s award inspired praise as well as criticism. Newspaper writers and some other authors showered him with praise. But others were more critical.

An arts critic, Ozdemir Ince, implied that Mr. Pamuk had won only because he presented the view of Turkish history that many Europeans wanted to hear. “Pamuk, who is given the Nobel Prize, accepts the Armenian genocide,” Mr. Ince said. “Turkey has been put on sale, and Turkish history has been sold in an auction at the lowest price.”

Alev Alatli, a novelist, criticized Mr. Pamuk during an interview on NTV.

“One of the most powerful institutions of the diaspora Armenians is in Sweden, and they are very powerful there,” she said. “Can you imagine that one could have been even nominated without being in good terms with these circles?”

Sema Munuklu, 38, a restaurant owner, said: “I don’t think that he didn’t deserve it. After all, he is a great writer. But I can’t help thinking that things he said might have been an influence on the prize.”

Ms. Munuklu said the French Parliament’s action displayed European hesitancy in accepting Turkey into the European Union.

Ibrahim Unseli, 55, who runs an electronics shop, said he was as appalled by the French Parliament’s attitude as he was by Mr. Pamuk’s position on the Armenians and added that he hoped that Turks would boycott French goods.

[milmor_1]

Another article in relation to this matter is as follows.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world...gewanted=print

Armenian Genocide Monument Destroyed in France
By REUTERS
Filed at 7:44 a.m. ET

PARIS (Reuters) - A bronze monument near Paris commemorating the 1915 massacre of Armenians by Ottoman Turks has been destroyed just two days after France's parliament passed a bill that would make it a crime to deny the genocide.

A local member of the Armenian church in Chaville, a town near Paris, said the heavy bronze sculpture was wrenched off its pedestal late Friday night or early Saturday morning.

``Police say it might have been stolen for the metal, but it seems too much of a coincidence that this should have happened just after parliament voted the Armenia bill,'' said Stephane Topalian, a member of the Armenian church council.

Ankara denies accusations that some 1.5 million Armenians perished in a systematic genocide during World War One, saying large numbers of both Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks died in a partisan conflict raging at that time.

Turkey has protested against Thursday's lower house vote, which establishes a one year prison term and 45,000 euro ($57,000) fine for anyone denying the massacres.

The bill still needs to be approved by the upper house Senate to become law.

[oderman]

Hi everybody,

Republic of Turkiye is a member of NATO for ~50 years.

In my opinion:

Jewish Holocaust has been denigrated with this law in France:

Can anybody prove any Jewish group, during and before WWII in Germany, established organized crime gangs mostly headed by Jewish religious leaders, and commited terrorist actions (even killing Jews who did not support them)? ANSWER: NO
Did any Jewish organization acted as a fifth coulmn (secret forces penetrated behind the armed forces) army of Germany's enemies, and behind the German fronts commited bloody attacks on both civilians and on wounded soldiers sent from the front? ANSWER: NO
Did any Jewish soldier in German Army fled the German's enemies in mass groups with their weapons and documents of information about German army? ANSWER: NO
Did any Jewish assasin sniped German officals behind the warzone, or after the war did any Jewish individual hunted/assasinated for the German Officers in foreign countries? ANSWER: NO
Jewish Holocaust has been proved by solid historical evidence and Nuremberg Trials are held for individuals not for All of the German people or not for all the German officers. Can you blame a whole community of Genocide? And during Nuremberg trials were any forgered documents created by Jews to accuse some innocent German Officers? ANSWER: NO
Did any Jewish individual or organization blast an German airliner office on an airport in USA or EUrope after; lets say, 50-60 years later WWII? (With accussation that Germans commited genocide and the bomber blasted the bomb because he wants everybody to remember it.) ANSWER: NO

Armenian organized groups commited all above against their Turkish neigbours and Ottoman / Turkish officals.

All the Turkish governments accepted that besides hundredthousands of Turkish/Muslim citizens, Armenians also died because of famine, disease, uncontrolled gangs attacks (for robbery or for revenge), and of conflicts of civil war aroused by Armenian nationalists.

The Ottoman Government re-located several hundred thousands of civilian people (mostly Armen