Go Back   Trackpads Community > General Discussions > Point/Counterpoint

Point/Counterpoint Debate newsworthy and other 'hot-button' topics here. If it can be debated, this is the forum for it. Can't be thin skinned - people will disagree with you. No flaming or personal attacks.

Point/Counterpoint

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-26-2006, 10:12   #1 (permalink)
Racy Ol' Lady
 
Snowden's Avatar
My Awards Rack
Silver Staff Service Medal Silver Reputation  Medal Silver Commanders Coin Silver Commanders Coin Silver Donations Award Gold Community Medal Gold Threads Medal 
Total Awards: 7
My Mood
My Mood:
Status
Snowden is online now
Post Count
48,256
My Photos
My Photos: 37
Member Flags
United States us maryland
My Referrals
My Referrals: 6
Personal Guestbook
Reputation +/-
Snowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant futureSnowden has a brilliant future
Other Swag
T-Bucks: 447,006.57
Bank: 0.00
Total T-Bucks: 447,006.57
     
     

 
Default Should we remain in Iraq? Let the Iraqis decide.

Should we remain in Iraq? Let Iraqis decide

By Jonah Goldberg
Apr 26, 2006


The welcome formation of a new unity government notwithstanding, the climate in Iraq remains poisonous. And now, observers lament, there are no more big "unifying events" on the calendar. America's reputation as freedom's champion is taking lumps around the globe, while public support here at home for the war is waning. Arab nations are using the situation in Iraq to push an anti-democratic and anti-American agenda. Terrorists have made the Iraq conflict the Spanish Civil War of the war on terror.
I have an idea to help fix all that. Let's let the Iraqi people vote on whether American troops should stay in Iraq.

President Bush has said that if a democratically elected government of Iraq asked us to leave, we would. I think Bush is sincere, but the truth is that no Iraqi government is going to ask U.S. troops to withdraw anytime soon, because American troops are the only thing holding the country together.

The Iraqi people understand this, too. In the town of Tall Afar, for example, American troops are keeping Iraqi factions from killing each other. Sheik Abdullah Al Yawar, a leading Sunni in the province, recently told The New Republic's Lawrence Kaplan that if U.S. soldiers withdraw, "there will be rivers of blood." The Atlantic Monthly's Robert Kaplan (no relation) recently wrote in the Los Angeles Times that "My most recent searing, first-hand impression of Iraq, from last December, is this one: one town and village after another getting back on its feet, with residents telling American troops not to leave."

This is the linchpin to my idea. Having Iraqis vote on the continued presence of American troops is not some starry-eyed affair. It depends as much on fear as it does on hope.

Right now, various factions within Iraq decry the "occupation" knowing full well that American troops aren't going anywhere - and that Iraqis don't want them to. This injects poison directly into the political climate. Politicians who take the reasonable and realistic position that American troops should stay can be outflanked by demagogues claiming to be the greater patriots and nationalists. Murderers pretend to be the authentic voice of Iraqis and Muslims, and the European and Arab press are keen to give this storyline a "fair" hearing.

Even here at home, critics of the war have come to paint Iraq as an entirely cynical and gloomy affair, launched on fraudulent rationales and continued out of hubris. Ted Kennedy calls it an "occupation," and his crowd snickers at the idea that democracy has anything to do with the enterprise.

An Iraqi referendum would counter all of that. A national debate in Iraq over the continued presence of American troops would force many Iraqis to stop taking our protection for granted. Not everyone there craves democracy, but very few of them relish the idea of a civil war. Politicians, now invested in the survival of the political system, would be forced to take the responsible position if they wanted to keep their jobs. Indeed, rhetoric and interests would converge nicely for the first time in a while. Some would undoubtedly campaign for American withdrawal, but this would probably marginalize them and show the whole world where the hearts of Iraqis really lie.

Obviously, if you know that a referendum on keeping U.S. troops in Iraq would not pass, my idea isn't so hot. But I think it would. The Kurds would overwhelmingly vote for it. As would, I think, a majority of the Shia. And the Sunnis have discovered that U.S. troops are the only thing keeping Shia militias from slitting their throats, so even the Sunnis might vote "yes" in big numbers. Some would surely vote out of fear, others hope. But they would all check the same box.

If Iraqis voted to keep American troops, everything would change. The "occupation" and "war for oil" rhetoric would be discredited overnight. America would have put its vital interest money where its principled mouth is. Iraq's anti-American factions would be further pulled into the process, even if they voted "no." The Iraqi people would "own" this project in their own right. Iraqi politicians would no longer have to worry about being called lapdogs to America - "the people have spoken," they could respond. Arab nations couldn't claim that the democratization of Iraq was inauthentic or imposed by "imperialists." Even the Europeans would be floored by the audacity of the gesture. And our own troops would have the idealism of their project reaffirmed.

But what if it failed? What if the Iraqis voted to kick us out? Well, again let me say I think this idea only makes sense if, after consulting with Iraqi politicians and others, we determine that it would likely pass. It would have to be worded in a creative way and all that. But at the end of the day, America still might lose. I'd hate to see that happen. But I can't think of a more honorable way for America to withdraw from Iraq and to prove it respects democracy. America won't bow to bullets and bombs - but it will to ballots.


Jonah Goldberg is editor-at-large of National Review Online.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/colu...26/195108.html
__________________
Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!


MOTM, Jan 2005, Aug 2007
Golden Cookie Award, 2005.
Aug 2006 Perv of the Month
Perv. Outreach Award, 2007
Snowden is online now  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Trackpads Information
Click to Visit
Old 04-26-2006, 12:23   #2 (permalink)
Non-Commissioned Officer
 
RIML's Avatar
My Awards Rack
Navy Service Button 
Total Awards: 1
My Mood
Status
RIML is offline
Post Count
294
My Photos
My Photos: 0
Member Flags
United States
My Referrals
My Referrals: 0
Personal Guestbook
Reputation +/-
RIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the roughRIML is a jewel in the rough
Other Swag
T-Bucks: 155.00
Bank: 0.00
Total T-Bucks: 155.00

 
Default Re: Should we remain in Iraq? Let the Iraqis decide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowden By Jonah Goldberg
If Iraqis voted to keep American troops, everything would change.
Not really. The Iraqi's have had three elections. They voted for a Constitutional Assembly, the Constitution itself, and then a Government which by all accounts has taken at least four months to form. None as of yet have had any lasting positive impact.

What has had impact is that the tempo of the insurgency has increased during all this time.

So a fourth election's going to change everything?? Somebody better tell Jonah Goldberg that the classic example of insanity is to keep doing the same thing over and over again, and expect different results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowden By Jonah Goldberg
The "occupation" and "war for oil" rhetoric would be discredited overnight.
And the Easter Bunny ands Santa Clause are flying in overnight with Peace in the Mideast...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowden By Jonah Goldberg
America would have put its vital interest money where its principled mouth is.
America normally puts its vital interest money where it's vital business interests are - not where our principles lie. That's why Clinton was so castigated by a Republican controlled House for intervening in Kosovo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowden By Jonah Goldberg
Iraq's anti-American factions would be further pulled into the process, even if they voted "no."
Iraq's anti-American factions are pretty well drawn into the process right now. It's called giving their lives for their people. A concept most of our Neo-Cons aren't too familiar with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowden By Jonah Goldberg
Iraqi people would "own" this project in their own right. Iraqi politicians would no longer have to worry about being called lapdogs to America - "the people have spoken," they could respond. Arab nations couldn't claim that the democratization of Iraq was inauthentic or imposed by "imperialists." Even the Europeans would be floored by the audacity of the gesture. And our own troops would have the idealism of their project reaffirmed.
They don't need another "Feel Good stick your Finger in Some Purple Ink" Election. All they have to do is take responsibility for their own Country - and we have to quite enabling their sorry provincial segmented warring asses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowden By Jonah Goldberg
But what if it failed? What if the Iraqis voted to kick us out? Well, again let me say I think this idea only makes sense if, after consulting with Iraqi politicians and others, we determine that it would likely pass. It would have to be worded in a creative way and all that.
Worded in a creative way to make it likely that it would pass?? Give me a freakin' break!!! Haven't we fixed enough elections?? If you want the people to vote, let them vote!! - Not rubberstamp something one's already decided...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowden By Jonah Goldberg
But at the end of the day, America still might lose. I'd hate to see that happen. But I can't think of a more honorable way for America to withdraw from Iraq and to prove it respects democracy. America won't bow to bullets and bombs - but it will to ballots.
America lost the day that the Bush administration decided to invade Iraq. Do we wish to cut our losses now, or let the Administration's insufferable hubris add more Americans deaths and treasure spent to the loss we shall inevitably suffer due to foolishly getting into an unneccesary theatre of the war where we had no business being, incompetently planned, and which diverted valuable resources from the real war on Al Qaeda.
__________________

Last edited by RIML; 04-26-2006 at 12:30.
RIML is offline  
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sunnis Want U.S. to Remain in Iraq Snowden News Articles 15 07-18-2006 14:50
[News Feed] Polls: U.S. Troops Should Remain in Iraq (AP) Forum Mouse News Articles 0 03-20-2005 16:00
[News Feed] Rice: U.S. Wants Iraq to Remain Whole (AP) Forum Mouse News Articles 0 02-06-2005 04:00
[News Feed] Iraqis, U.S. Hail Falluja Success, Threats Remain Forum Mouse News Articles 0 11-18-2004 20:00
Current troop levels will remain in Iraq sfga6970 News Articles 3 05-05-2004 12:19


Community Information
Options
Quick Options
Trackpads Non-Commercial Ad
Copyright Information Click to Visit
Time
Server Time
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:17.
Copyright
Copyright Information
The header is based off of work by Vipixel.com and modified by this site. Trackpads and the Trackpads Logo are both Registered Trademarks of Jason Edwards and cannot be used without prior written permission.  The only exception is as a link back to this site. Trackpads is a private website run by a small legion of volunteers, 3 dogs, 12.5 cats and an army of small, super smart, bio-engineered mice with pointy hats and tutu's. Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.2.0 RC7
Archive Links
Archive Links
Page generated in 0.71578 seconds with 22 queries