Is the price worth it?

[AndJusticeForAll]

This will hopefully generate some interesting debate. Hopefully it will be good debate, free from personal bickering and insults. It's a question that seems central to everything we tend to disagree on regarding the war in Iraq here on TP. I hope this thread will help us to understand eachother better.

The facts:

We have lost over 610 American GI's in Iraq now. We have lost 20 since this past weekend. The recent casualty rate is alarming, even though it's low compared to past wars. There have been a reported 3,000 injuries of various degrees of seriousness. Some of them are very serious.

The question is very simple then:

Is it worth it (or has it been worth it) and why do you feel this way? There is no right or wrong answer, only opinions, all of which are welcome. I have stated my opinion and I will state it once again.

I support the President of the United States and I support my fellow brothers and sisters in harm's way. I feel a much stronger bond to fellow soldiers than to George Bush.

I no longer believe that there is anything in Iraq worth American lives. Not now after capturing Saddam, killing his sons, destroying the Ba'ath party, and removing the Iraqi threat to the United States. The price we have paid already is very heavy and it's true hidden effects will be felt for years to come, long after the politicians have gone. I speak of the sure to come "Iraq War" illness, DU poisoning, and the long road faced by those who have been injured physically and emotionally as well as the road ahead for their families. This is all part of the price.

This is what I think we tend to disagree on, whether or not we as individuals think the price we are paying in Iraq is worth it. Some think it is. I want to hear from you. Some think it's not. I want to hear from you. Some maybe think it was at one time but is no longer, and vice versa. I want to hear from you.

Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. It's all OPINION.

Is the price worth it?

[165grNosler]

I'll go ahead and weigh in on this one and copy/paste a response I made in another discussion group on a very simular topic.



Having had the opportunity to speak one on one with many of the returning Soldiers, I would like to make a few points...
1. Notice that on the news 99% of what is reported, concerning the GWT, is bad news. What is not getting reported is the tremendous accomplishments of our servicemembers. Utilities, schools, hospitals, basic infrastruture, etc.
2. Most areas in Iraq are cooperating and welcome the coalition forces. While there are a few hotspots, the majority of the violence is being commited by non-Iraqi personnel. (Side note- if they weren't going into Iraq to fight us, where would they be going instead??)
3. There has been tremendous strides in the reorganizing of the Iraqi government. The extremist Muslin sector does not like this, in fact it has their turbans all knotted up! They have stepped up their operations to include trying to involve as many Iraqi nationals as possible to hamper these efforts. (side note- Guess whose faces we have on video!!! If the media "decides" to report it, you might like what you see in the coming weeks!)
4. The last thing we need to do is leave Iraq before the job is finished. This would totally ruin our credibility in future operations of this sort. We would also have no chance of putting together another coalition for future operations. Yes, we will continue to have Soldiers killed and wounded, but I would rather have the enemy blowing up bombs on foriegn soil, attacking trained Soldiers as opposed to infiltrating the US and blowing up civilians with a body count that can be factored exponentially.
5. As long as we take the fight to them, we can enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we have become acustomed to. If we adopt an isolationist approach, we will allow the terrorists the breathing room to reorganize and bring the fight to us, on our home front. If that should happen, we will see an end to our freedoms. My best suggestion to the members of the board is to "look outside the box", and don't get wrapped up what the news media "decides" to report. It'll eat you up inside.

[odannyboy]

Personally, it was very naive of the Bush Administration to think they could pull this off. They admitted they didn't plan on the excessive looting or the complete breakdown of security. They only planned for the military eventuality.


Now we are trying to impose our ideals of Democracy on a people not only unaccustomed to them but also who are traditonally hostile to the West (at least a small percentage of them)

How long did I think this shaky alliance would hold? I'm surprised it has lasted this long. It was only a matter of time until some radical firebrand (like the Shi'ite cleric in Baghdad) started caling for "holy war" and the disaffected majority rally to his call. Now we are facing a situation that reminds one of Vietnam, and how much more money and lives will be lost before we pull out?

How long will whatever government we set up last after we leave? Will Iraq become another religious theocracy like Iran? Did we make the situation worse in the Middle East by removing a counter-weight to Iranian fundamentalism that Hussein provided?

Those are hard questions, and all the patriotic optimism in the world cannot change the fact there are no easy answers.

[kruser79]

My $.02 may turn into a nickel or two, but here goes.

We toss around phrases like "Freedom isn't free" all the time. And I'm a firm believer in "Freedom is bought with the blood of patriots." If Americans were the only deaths in Iraq, and if Iraqis were sitting by while we payed for their freedom, you'd hear me screaming bloody murder.
The Iraqi Police and Security Forces are losing their numbers as well. Many times in firefights side by side with Americans. They are not idle. We are their means. We have technical and tactical abilities that they don't, we have the technical know-how to help them rebuild, we have the experience to train them with. We have over two hundred years experience in an "experimental" form of government that seems to have worked fairly well.
Some of the worst "free" countries in the world right now are those that were handed their freedom, spoon-fed democracy with no struggle to free themselves. The greed of the erstwhile East Germans was appalling. One day the border magically opened and they streamed across to cash in on the "equality payment" offered by the West German government (some families sending in numerous family members to double, triple, even quadruple the gift, something they were told was illegal). Their instantaneous demands for equal benefits and payscales was what ultimately caused Germany's fall from it's perch as one of Europe's most prosperous nations.
Iraq has been handed her freedom, but not at no cost to them. The administration has the right idea. They give up the people that are going to be running the country, securing the populace, and maintaining the infrastructure. We give them their country (minus one select rectum head and his amassed chogi-boys), help them keep the peace, while we train those of them that need it.
We aren't simply dying for them so that we can hand them their freedom on a nice tidy silver platter. We're helping them fight for it. We helped them by taking down the one that held them under his thumb, and we help them now by assisting them in the fight against a couple of nutjobs bent on spreading fanatacism and opression. And after talking to some of my buddies that have come back, it's as I thought. You know what? The Iraqis are actually appreciative! Of course, no one likes foreigners with guns wandering their streets, but they still say "Thank you" to the Americans they see, the kids still wave and flash the peace sign to the soldiers that pass.

Is it worth the price?
Ask the soldiers in the pictures with Iraqi children. Ask the soldiers that have lost buddies in the firefights with those that would send Iraq back to the dark ages (like Afghanistan was three years ago).

[BrianK]

Worth is a question America started with isn’t it? Was the Boston tea party worth what was to come? Was the war for independence worth it? Was the civil war worth what is still being worked out? Was WWII worth our response? Is the question of worth based on life lost or what an unknown end result could produce. An argument could be made for either side of the few examples I cited. To answer the question of worth relating to Iraq & this topic I’ll answer it this way.

I view our being in Iraq as part of an overall effort to preserve what we value as worth to this generation & future generations. I’ll not use cliché’s because those are based on the thoughts of greater thinkers than I. Loss of life to defend an unknown outcome isn’t easy to bear. But what is the alternative?

Each person has to list what they think they know about radical Islamics & the radicals ability to plan. Was it fast & furious or methodical? Would achieving the capture of bin Laden end the threat? Has the Muslim community peaceful or otherwise increased world wide? Are there cells operating in a variety of countries? Concerning Iraq’s leadership did the Muslim community world wide rise up in anger at his removal? Were Hussein’s son positioned to follow in their father’s footsteps? Is thinking about the Arabic saying “1 day or 100 years time is irrevelent when a wrong is to be righted “ useful when considering how determined radicals are to destroy western civilization? Those & dozens of other questions have to be personally examined.

The worth of being in Iraq can be weighed in terms of fighting for our future without knowing the outcome makes the “worth” for me a yes. Do I look at loss of life as a dear price to pay the answer also is yes.

I have two worth’s. An emotional one & a practical one, that I struggle with constantly.

My opinion then weighs in on the side of practical. Reactive brought us through loss of many lives during the 90’s up to & including to 9/11. Pro active is without answers but so was the war for independence. Pro active also means to me that Iraq is a stratigic location which warrants our being there.

Our forefathers didn’t have the answers a history to review or a wealth of information to develope a strategy they had a vision for future generations. Do we?

[Woodmonkey]

Very good points made in both your posts, Kruser and Brian.

[1CAV]

Originally Posted by 165grNosler

I'll go ahead and weigh in on this one and copy/paste a response I made in another discussion group on a very simular topic.



Having had the opportunity to speak one on one with many of the returning Soldiers, I would like to make a few points...
1. Notice that on the news 99% of what is reported, concerning the GWT, is bad news. What is not getting reported is the tremendous accomplishments of our servicemembers. Utilities, schools, hospitals, basic infrastruture, etc.
2. Most areas in Iraq are cooperating and welcome the coalition forces. While there are a few hotspots, the majority of the violence is being commited by non-Iraqi personnel. (Side note- if they weren't going into Iraq to fight us, where would they be going instead??)
3. There has been tremendous strides in the reorganizing of the Iraqi government. The extremist Muslin sector does not like this, in fact it has their turbans all knotted up! They have stepped up their operations to include trying to involve as many Iraqi nationals as possible to hamper these efforts. (side note- Guess whose faces we have on video!!! If the media "decides" to report it, you might like what you see in the coming weeks!)
4. The last thing we need to do is leave Iraq before the job is finished. This would totally ruin our credibility in future operations of this sort. We would also have no chance of putting together another coalition for future operations. Yes, we will continue to have Soldiers killed and wounded, but I would rather have the enemy blowing up bombs on foriegn soil, attacking trained Soldiers as opposed to infiltrating the US and blowing up civilians with a body count that can be factored exponentially.
5. As long as we take the fight to them, we can enjoy the lifestyle and freedoms that we have become acustomed to. If we adopt an isolationist approach, we will allow the terrorists the breathing room to reorganize and bring the fight to us, on our home front. If that should happen, we will see an end to our freedoms. My best suggestion to the members of the board is to "look outside the box", and don't get wrapped up what the news media "decides" to report. It'll eat you up inside.

First of all you are correct to a certain extent about the media reporting only bad news. Yes the media seems to thrive on only bad news from Iraq. But at the same time what is being put out by the administration that everything is peachy keen and the Iraqis love having us there, except for a few rogue insurgents, is BS.

"isolationist approach"??? How is America not intervening in Iraq an "isolationist approach"??? Seriousely how are we being "isolationists" by not invading Iraq?