Is the price worth it?

[1CAV]

Originally Posted by kruser79

The Iraqi Police and Security Forces are losing their numbers as well. Many times in firefights side by side with Americans. They are not idle.

Actually the "Iraqi police" were quoted as saying it was "none of their business" when asked why they didn't intervene in what was being done to the Americans in Fallujah.

Originally Posted by kruser79

Some of the worst "free" countries in the world right now are those that were handed their freedom, spoon-fed democracy with no struggle to free themselves. Iraq has been handed her freedom, but not at no cost to them. The administration has the right idea. They give up the people that are going to be running the country, securing the populace, and maintaining the infrastructure. We give them their country (minus one select rectum head and his amassed chogi-boys), help them keep the peace, while we train those of them that need it.

Yes you are correct, a country that is "handed" it's freedom will never understand it. And YES Bush is taking the right approach in trying to make the Iraqis more and more responsible for their freedom to happen.

Originally Posted by kruser79

We aren't simply dying for them so that we can hand them their freedom on a nice tidy silver platter. We're helping them fight for it. We helped them by taking down the one that held them under his thumb, and we help them now by assisting them in the fight against a couple of nutjobs bent on spreading fanatacism and opression. And after talking to some of my buddies that have come back, it's as I thought. You know what? The Iraqis are actually appreciative! Of course, no one likes foreigners with guns wandering their streets, but they still say "Thank you" to the Americans they see, the kids still wave and flash the peace sign to the soldiers that pass.

Now where I believe you are wrong is in this belief. We are helping them fight for it, but unfortunately the majority of them don't care enough to help in the fight. For every instance of 'kids waving in the streets' I can give you an instance of kids in the streets throwing rocks and cursing us out. And it is not a couple "nutjobs bent on spreading fanatacism".

It is unbelievable how much America does not understand this region of the world??? These people are followers not leaders! If some politician came out and said 'anybody who is for tax cuts should be stoned to death' he/she would be thrown out of office, at best. In that region of the world a cleric comes out and says "the Americans are evil and occupying our country and should be stoned to death" then many people will actually believe that and do it! These people's thought process in like nothing Americans can imagine or comprehend! It's like the battered wife syndrome...You have some lady getting beaten by her husband everyday for 10yrs, and she's finally had enough and calls the cops to arrest him and they do and she's attacking the police because they are taking away her babies daddy! Until we can hand them democracy on a silver platter, they will never be willing to come forward and sacrifice anything for it, at least not a majority of them which is what we need!

Originally Posted by kruser79

Is it worth the price?
Ask the soldiers in the pictures with Iraqi children. Ask the soldiers that have lost buddies in the firefights with those that would send Iraq back to the dark ages (like Afghanistan was three years ago).

That's the "touchy-feely" aspect of it. It is disengenous to ask some soldier if he feels like Iraq is better off. Of course Iraq is better off without Saddam. Of course it feels "justified" and worthwhile when you see Iraqi kids able to go to school and do things they could never do under Saddam. Let's put the BS aside and ask this soldier if he thinks it's worth the loss of American life at all costs to force democracy onto a country that could care less if they have it or not!

[RetPara]

I've been saying that we would have to do this since March of 1991. The very nature of the coalition we assembled at that time prevented it... there were plans...

For the extended long term we won the day that the earthly remains of The Pig Latin Twins were rolled into body bags. The potential for just plain evil they displayed would of caused Uncle Joe or Uncle Adolf to blanch. Having either of those in power would of had cataclysmic consequences.

This was going to have to be done eventually... Uncle Saddam's ambitions were not diminishing with age. The Pig Latin Twins did not understand the concept of 'no'.

Consider this... we have paid a price in many ways for taking action now. What would the prices be if the UN had dropped sanctions in a few years and one of the Twins had replaced Dad. I could see an attack on Kuwait to retake the oil field s that reightfully belong to Iraq. He leads the attack with a nerve agent he tested against the Kurds earlier that year, OR They launch chemical weapons and a dirty nuke at Israel...

We would be drawn in one way or another. In several years we may or may not have had the combat to project and use...

Better to do it now than later, it would of had to be done...

[kruser79]

That's the "touchy-feely" aspect of it. It is disengenous to ask some soldier if he feels like Iraq is better off. Of course Iraq is better off without Saddam. Of course it feels "justified" and worthwhile when you see Iraqi kids able to go to school and do things they could never do under Saddam. Let's put the BS aside and ask this soldier if he thinks it's worth the loss of American life at all costs to force democracy onto a country that could care less if they have it or not!

My bottom line was that although I have my beliefs as to whether or not all this is worth it, the opinion that truly matters is the guy on the ground, the guy who has lost someone that was right next to him the day before. And after talking with friends that have been coming home this past month, they've almost all been of the same mindset. And the same way that high reinlistment is an indicator of a unit's morale, the waving kids is an indicator that they aren't being brainwashed by hateful parents. It's an indicator that we aren't despised by the majority.

Now where I believe you are wrong is in this belief. We are helping them fight for it, but unfortunately the majority of them don't care enough to help in the fight. For every instance of 'kids waving in the streets' I can give you an instance of kids in the streets throwing rocks and cursing us out. And it is not a couple "nutjobs bent on spreading fanatacism".

It is unbelievable how much America does not understand this region of the world??? These people are followers not leaders! If some politician came out and said 'anybody who is for tax cuts should be stoned to death' he/she would be thrown out of office, at best. In that region of the world a cleric comes out and says "the Americans are evil and occupying our country and should be stoned to death" then many people will actually believe that and do it! These people's thought process in like nothing Americans can imagine or comprehend! It's like the battered wife syndrome...You have some lady getting beaten by her husband everyday for 10yrs, and she's finally had enough and calls the cops to arrest him and they do and she's attacking the police because they are taking away her babies daddy! Until we can hand them democracy on a silver platter, they will never be willing to come forward and sacrifice anything for it, at least not a majority of them which is what we need!

From a population of millions, one cleric with an estimated following numbered around ten thousand? I call that a couple of nutjobs.
The mindset of the Middle Easterner is not too far removed from the mindless fanatacism of Europe during the middle ages. The Christian leaders of the time had the very same type of "Believe or die" MOI. And unbelievably the populace either professed their belief, or they died. The Middle East has not evolved on the same linear path that the West has. Because of the tenets and fatwahs issued by religious leaders having their own military units (to enforce their edicts), the average Muslim has been kept in the dark for hundreds of years. Of course they have no idea what they want, they have no idea what the options are.

[AndJusticeForAll]

Originally Posted by kruser79

My bottom line was that although I have my beliefs as to whether or not all this is worth it, the opinion that truly matters is the guy on the ground, the guy who has lost someone that was right next to him the day before.

I disagreee that the only opinion that truly matters is that of a soldier who served there. His or her opinion may matter more but as Americans, we are all affected by this and every voice counts. I might have tended to agree if you had said that the opinion of a Veteran carries more weight with you than of a civilian.

And just what is your bottom line belief if you don't mind me asking?

[Joker]

Originally Posted by kruser79

We aren't simply dying for them so that we can hand them their freedom on a nice tidy silver platter. We're helping them fight for it. We helped them by taking down the one that held them under his thumb, and we help them now by assisting them in the fight against a couple of nutjobs bent on spreading fanatacism and opression. And after talking to some of my buddies that have come back, it's as I thought. You know what? The Iraqis are actually appreciative! Of course, no one likes foreigners with guns wandering their streets, but they still say "Thank you" to the Americans they see, the kids still wave and flash the peace sign to the soldiers that pass.

Is it worth the price?
Ask the soldiers in the pictures with Iraqi children. Ask the soldiers that have lost buddies in the firefights with those that would send Iraq back to the dark ages (like Afghanistan was three years ago).

I'm sure the Americans were equally grateful to the French for their assistance during the War of Independence. Perhaps more so, since they refrained from murdering French freedom fighters (or should that be 'Freedom freedom fighters' now?) after the war was won. And the Iraqis will remain just as grateful for America's help after the withdrawal.

History really does repeat itself as farce...

[kruser79]

Originally Posted by AndJusticeForAll

I disagreee that the only opinion that truly matters is that of a soldier who served there. His or her opinion may matter more but as Americans, we are all affected by this and every voice counts. I might have tended to agree if you had said that the opinion of a Veteran carries more weight with you than of a civilian.

And just what is your bottom line belief if you don't mind me asking?

No you're right, I mispoke. Of course I don't believe that his opinion is the only one that counts. I agree with you in that his would carry more weight.
My belief? There are numerous reasons that I've mentioned before for our starting this whole thing. In fact I deleted a rather lengthy paragraph from my response last night because I didn't believe it applied.
One of the reasons (because I agree whole-heartedly with RetPara for another of them) is that we beared the brunt of post-Gulf War UN sanction enforcement. It wasn't German, French, nor Russian jets flying the no-fly zones for over a decade, being "painted" by targeting radar on a regular basis. It wasn't German, French, nor Russian warships patrolling Iraqi waters, boarding illegal smuggling ships. If the UN had shared the wealth of taskings, then maybe they would have been given more of a say so in the final enforcement of the resolutions. Kind of like the kids on the playground. If I'm the only one bringing a ball to play with, I get to name the game. If we are the only ones putting up the millions of dollars and thousands of troops enforcing a ten-year-old resolution, then we should be allowed to say "enough is enough."
These are only two reasons, my previous post gives another. Holding Saddam to the resolutions; freeing the Iraqi people from a life of fear, destitution, brutality, and atrocity; and keeping us from having to go back a third and possibly fourth time to put down what would have been inevitable once Saddam's spawn were allowed to take power; I think these give pretty tough credence to undertaking a grim and costly task.

[165grNosler]

Originally Posted by 1CAV

First of all you are correct to a certain extent about the media reporting only bad news. Yes the media seems to thrive on only bad news from Iraq. But at the same time what is being put out by the administration that everything is peachy keen and the Iraqis love having us there, except for a few rogue insurgents, is BS.

"isolationist approach"??? How is America not intervening in Iraq an "isolationist approach"??? Seriousely how are we being "isolationists" by not invading Iraq?

That comment was in reply to numerous family members stating that we should pull completely out of Iraq and let the country do what it will. I do not believe in doing the arm-chair general thing, don't recall mentioning in my post anything about " How is America not intervening in Iraq...". I am more concerned about the current situation that we find ourselves in.