Outraged! Possible Terrorist Murder a NJ family

[cato2]

Who said that perhaps the terrorist are not fighing a religious war? Who said that they are not out to seek out those that challenge them here in the United States? This story is being reported on Fox News as a possible retaliation from something that occurred in an internet chat room. Just why would someone seek out another on the net to murder them. And not only murder the poster in the chat room, but the family as well.

Is this in fact terrorist who are now in the United States and striking out in retaliation against American citizens? Or just a difference of opinion that got carried away? According to Fox News it appears that there are religious factors involved in this case.

Investigation continues into slaying of family of four
1/16/2005, 4:29 p.m. ET
The Associated Press

JERSEY CITY, N.J. (AP) — Authorities continued to investigate the brutal slayings of a couple and their two children, as a family member in Egypt called for revenge in the mysterious deaths.

No arrests had been made Sunday in the killings of 47-year-old Hossam Armanious, his 37-year-old wife, Amal Garas, and their two daughters. The four were found bound and gagged with their throats slashed early Friday.

Receiving mourners paying their respects in a funeral tent raised in downtown Luxor, Egypt, on Sunday, Armanious' elder brother Talaat said he was bewildered by the killings. He added that his brother's New Jersey home was robbed several months before the killing.

"Why would anyone do that to him?" Talaat Armanious said. "We want revenge. We want an extensive investigation to find out what really happened."

Unidentified law enforcement sources told The Sunday Star-Ledger of Newark and The Sunday Record of Bergen County that investigators were examining messages Armanious had posted in an Internet chat room that may have provided a motive in the slayings.

The messages were of a religious nature and concerned the family's Coptic Christian beliefs, both newspapers reported.

Hudson County prosecutors did not offer any details on a possible motive, and did not immediately return a message left by The Associated Press on Sunday.

First Assistant Hudson County Prosecutor Gaetano Gregory told The Record that police had ruled out a theory that the killings may have stemmed from a dispute between the family and a former tenant.

Police said there were no signs of forced entry at the home in the city's Heights section.

The family came to the United States from Egypt in 1997 and were active members of the St. George & St. Shenouda Coptic Orthodox Church, a Christian congregation. A funeral mass was scheduled to be held at the church on Monday morning.

The Coptic Business Association of Jersey City has offered a $500,000 reward for information leading to an arrest in the killings, The Star-Ledger reported.

Copts comprise roughly 10 percent of Egypt's population of 70 million. They have a long history in Egypt — tradition says St. Mark brought Christianity to Egypt just a few years after the death of Christ.

They live in peace with Muslims but they are underrepresented in the upper ranks of the civil service and complain of discrimination in finding jobs and restrictions on building churches. There are about 1 million Copts who live in the United States.

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[USMC5831]

Very interesting article. I had not heard this til now. I will tell you first hand coptic chritians in Egypt are not liked by the Muslims. They are often denied service at shops and in some areas still beaten for their beliefs.

[johnjpender]

Even though most immigrants that come here are just hard working people looking for a chance to make a living, Jersey City has consistently come up in these terror-related crimes. I've heard it's very diverse with very wealthy people living along the Hudson with views of NYC and then lot's of immigrants I think 16 languages are spoken in the small city....so many people from various cultures are still getting along in America.

Having said that, murders based along religious lines shows us the dark side of letting people in with beliefs that are not in keeping with the religious tolerance we value. Lincoln said, of course over 100 years ago, that some people think being American is a certificate of ancestry. It's not. It's a commitment to commonly held beliefs about basically he said human rights and freedoms. So in short: we've got to watch who we let in cause some people are out to undermine all that through terror or intimidation.

[Snowden]

Originally Posted by USMC5831

Very interesting article. I had not heard this til now. I will tell you first hand coptic chritians in Egypt are not liked by the Muslims. They are often denied service at shops and in some areas still beaten for their beliefs.

Chris, I've also heard that if an Egyptian Muslim becomes a Christian, he or she is immediately under a fatwa or death sentence. Did you see any evidence or hear anything about this?

I have a Coptic cross which I wore visiting someone in the hospital once, and in the elevator met a man from Ethiopia who was delighted to see it and to find I knew what it is.

[cato2]

Originally Posted by USMC5831

Very interesting article. I had not heard this til now. I will tell you first hand coptic chritians in Egypt are not liked by the Muslims. They are often denied service at shops and in some areas still beaten for their beliefs.

Chris I thought you might find this of interest. It shows how the tensions have existed not only here but in Egypt as well. And how even here the distrust still remains.

Marianne, it seems that with what you spoke of it shows that with some immigrants the idea of religious freedom was not lost on them. Were you aware at the time that it was a Coptic cross?

Tension between Copts, Muslims also immigrated

Sunday, January 16, 2005
BY JEFF DIAMANT
Star-Ledger Staff

In Egypt, they lived as a Christian religious minority in a predominately Muslim country.

That, along with economic troubles in Egypt, is what led many Coptic Christians to immigrate over the last 40 years to the United States, where several hundred thousand now live, mostly in New Jersey, New York and California.

Copts are part of a religious tradition that broke with mainstream Christianity in 451 over a doctrinal dispute on the nature of Christ. Their current spiritual leader, Pope Shenouda III, is based in Cairo and visits the United States frequently.

Tensions that have strained relations between Copts and Muslims in Egypt also exist in the United States, but with far less potency than in Egypt, as Coptic Christians feel much more religious freedom here, several Copts said.

"I don't think that Coptic people in the U.S. suffer from anyone," said Mamdouh Abdelsayed, a Coptic Christian who lives in Kearny. "We are not a minority anymore as we are in Egypt. ... Dealing with Muslim people, we don't have problems. I'm doing my job, they're doing their job."

In Egypt, Coptic Christians feel their minority status every day, said Monir Dawoud, 65, who moved to the United States from Egypt in 1975.

"The media is all owned by the government, and the media is all Muslim, praising Islam and minimizing Christianity, making it very tough for Christians to live," said Dawoud, a surgeon in Hudson County and acting president of the American Coptic Association.

The killings of 21 Coptic Christians in riots five years ago in Kosheh, Egypt, remain a vivid memory for many.

In the United States, leaders of Egyptian Muslim and Coptic communities have tried to soothe relations, meeting several times at the Egyptian embassy in recent years.

"We can show we are the American-Egyptian family. We're all living here as foreigners," said Mohamed Younes, president of the American Muslim Union, a New Jersey group. "If we live in peace together, we give a good impression to people back in Egypt."

Yet some Copts and Muslims interviewed yesterday said distrust still exists.

"At the job, I talk to them, but (they) don't go inside my house," said Ashraf Paul, a Coptic Christian who drives a taxi in Jersey City. "I don't trust them."

Abdal Aziz, a Muslim taxi driver in Jersey City, offered the same sentiment.

"Most of the taxi owners in Journal Square are Christian. They don't help us. We don't need their help, and we can't trust them."

In Egypt, diplomacy between Coptic and government leaders is a delicate affair.

The main Coptic leader in the northeast United States, Bishop David, acknowledged in an interview last night that Copts want more religious freedoms in Egypt but stressed that the government is improving on that front. In recent years, for example, television has begun airing Christmas and Easter Masses.

Staff writer Paul Nelson contributed to this story.
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[Snowden]

Originally Posted by cato2

Chris I thought you might find this of interest. It shows how the tensions have existed not only here but in Egypt as well. And how even here the distrust still remains.

Marianne, it seems that with what you spoke of it shows that with some immigrants the idea of religious freedom was not lost on them. Were you aware at the time that it was a Coptic cross?

Yes, Cato - I knew what it was. The man said, "Oh, you're wearing the cross of my church!" Recognizing a question in his remark, I responded that yes, it was the Coptic Cross. Then he did really grin - it made him happy to find somebody who knew that.

I've often wonder why it so delighted him - and that my husband also knew. We discussed religion for a while - my having been in Jerusalem to the Coptic Church on top of Church of the Holy Sepulchre, etc. There is a village up there, and you go down stairs within the building into the Coptic Church. I've only done it twice, and it's a bit confused in my memory - but at least I have done it twice.

One guide took my group down, and on a subsequent visit when I was there alone I mentioned it to my friend, who was our first guide in 1979. He said nothing; simply took me to the top of Holy Sepulchre and down through the Coptic Church. Proving a point, I think.

[cato2]

I think I recall watching that on television once upon a time. And the reason is exactly what you stated. The fact that one had to go down into the church itself.